If disgruntled vets coming to this forum to complain about SWG/SOE after 33 or so months is considered 'insane', then the fanbois that feel obsessed enough to constantly come into this particular forum and complain ad nauseum about the vets is in as much need of a Dr. Phil consult as any disgruntled vet. Some seem to stalk the vets here quite regularly which is down right creepy. It also amazes me that many of the fanbois take any criticism of SWG or SOE as a personal insult and will immediately fall into personal attacks and/or nonsensical rationalization.

The OP did ask why questions regarding SWG/SOE were often met with criticism and insult. If such questions offends anyone's delicate sensibilities, then why not refrain from taking the 'low road' and just gnore the question(s)?

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

 

Yes, I admit I was insane.

SWG was the first online game that I purchased and subscribed to on my own.  I played a bit of Ultima Online (not on my account or computer).  The reason I never bought and subscribed to Ultima Online was that I just didn't trust what the MMO publishers wanted me to buy into.

To me, MMOs were just not a good value.  In fact, I thought that it was a pretty shaky proposition.  I mean, they expected me to buy software at $50, subscribe for $15 a month, and in the best case scenario, I'd enjoy an expensive game...compared to all of the other, non-subscription based games I could buy.

But I always thought in the back of my mind, "what if they couldn't keep the service open, and had to close down?"  Then all of that money would be wasted and all I'd have is software that doesn't work.  To tell you the truth, I thought anyone who bought into these subscription-based games was insane, because it never seemed to dawn upon them that their enjoyment of these things was contingent on a ton of factors outside of their control.  Seeing how Earth and Beyond folded didn't help matters.  To me, these games seemed wasteful, impractical, and silly.  To tell you the truth, I thought that these games would all go bust.

My friends from grad school got into SWG.  They begged me to come on with them, so I was at the CompUSA in Chicago near Water Tower with the SWG box in my hand.  I thought about it for a good five minutes, until I said to myself I should give it a shot.  It seemed all good, since I had about four or five friends who did it too.  I figured it would be a nice diversion, if nothing else.

Now I look at my shelf and on my hard drive of my old PC.  I see the software, but at this point, all I see is how much money I wasted on something that I don't even know how to enjoy anymore:

Star Wars Galaxies: An Empire Divided $50x2= $100

Jump to Lightspeed $30x2= $60

Rage of the Wookiees $30x2= $60

Subs account 1: 27mox$15= $405

Subs account 2: 24mox$15= $360

________________________________

Total: $885

Compare that with Sim City IV, which I purchased a few months earlier:

Sim City IV: $50

Rush Hour: $30

__________________

Total: $80

Guess which one I still play and enjoy today?  To put it another way, which one would the sane person choose?

So yes, I was insane.  I was insane for not listening to my better sense before jumping into this sort of thing.  Then again, I saw how Ultima didn't fold, and games like Everquest were still going strong.  It seemed to me at the time that this industry came of age, and offered stability that was on par with their non-online counterparts.  For awhile, things seemed good.  I felt as if this genre was worth it, since the games got better as time went on.

Then my rulebook started to become slowly obsolete.  All throughout 2005, the game chganged slowly into something I didn't purchase, and didn't want.  All of the sudden I logged on to a game in late November that I literally didn't know how to play.  Not only that, but the animations, colors, and engine seemed broken.

I don't want to hear how SOE wasn't fufilling their expectations with SWG.  The fact that a publisher's interest impacts my continued enjoyment of the software I buy is one of the reasons this genre isn't for sane people.  I don't want to hear how SOE puts up the directions on how to play on their website.  I had a perfectly good rulebook before, and for the price I pay, I shouldn't have to relearn how to use the software I already learned.  I don't really care to know that people enjoy the NGE.  What makes these people better for SOE than I was with my $885?  The fact that there wasn't enough people like me?  The fact that the continued enjoyment of the things I purchase is contingent on factors that are beyond my control is another reason why only an insane person would buy into these games.

Now some may argue that bringing up SWG and SOE at this late stage is insane.  But when I consider that I spent far more time talking about how to make SWG better on the SWG boards--time and threads that, in retrospect, were ignored--I think I was far more insane talking about SWG when I was subscribed, than I am now.  Some may say that looking at Jesor's reports is insane.  But Jestor's reports are free, and I spend far less time watching Jestor than I did looking through patch notes, threads, and dev chats back when I was playing.  Looking back, I was far more insane to get hooked and conned by this industry, than I am now.

Complaining about SWG after three years is insane?  All the other software I purchased in 2005 I can still enjoy just as I did in 2005.  SWG is the exception though, so I see it as very sane to complain.  After all, it's free, unlike paying $885 for something that isn't and can never be yours.

Excellent post! 50 gold stars for you!

I was ripped of by my auto insurance company a few years ago... do I still complain about it? Hell yes I do. Will I always talk about it? Hell yes I will. Always, until I die. Is it considered insane to complain about a business that rips you off, years after the fact? Hell no it's not. When ever somebody asks me about my experience with said insurance company, I willl tell them my opinion and recommend not doing business with them. Many people have been ripped off, and are not considered insane for helping their fellow consumer become educated. What is insane is 'getting over it' and letting these companies continue to rape peoples wallets.

Beatnik59's post deserves post of the week.

Sanity is relative to the person judging and all the bias that they take into the situation with them.

As for Dr. Phil, please. Bring in someone with some real credentials and offer up their analysis. Guessing  the mindset of the psychiatric world's version of McDonalds is fatally flawed and even then...its just guessing, now isn't it?

Ps. Still have and play my GOY edition of Unreal Tourney from way back.  Money well spent.

Wow Beatnik's post is indeed a 5 star read.  It takes the buyer beware message to a new level of clarity. 

It also echoes my thoughts on how this industry needs to continue to mature, and some service providers have further to go than others.

I also think it's very likely that regulation of the industry is going to become a reality in the near future.   I expect regulation will be designed to insure that customers get what was advertised, and that they get it in a functional state.  I also expect that it will govern information shared that effects people's decisions to subscribe or resubscribe.  This will entail the necessity of accurate information shared in a timely manner about upcoming game changes or any discontinuation of service.  Many of the carte blanche statements in EULAs that challenge other legal principles are likely to be rendered unlawful.  Some EULAs have already failed court challenges, resulting in fines to the service providers and orders to amend the unlawful EULAs.  The wheels of justice turn slowly because of the size of the bureaucracy, but they do turn.

If, or more likely when, these changes occur, I think people will be able to buy into the MMO genre with far less risk of abuse and exploitation at the hands of unethical business men and women.  For now, I think it's important to check a company's track record before investing any time, energy or money.

P.S.  For those that try to protest regulation by claiming it will be some kind of tax grab: If you paid your sales tax, you've already paid for this kind of service.  Furthermore, fines for offenders can be put towards this regulatory service.  There will be very little difference between this and the regulation of cable or satelite televsion services.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Wow Beatnik's post is indeed a 5 star read.  It takes the buyer beware message to a new level of clarity. 

It also echoes my thoughts on how this industry needs to continue to mature, and some service providers have further to go than others.

I also think it's very likely that regulation of the industry is going to become a reality in the near future.   I expect regulation will be designed to insure that customers get what was advertised, and that they get it in a functional state.  I also expect that it will govern information shared that effects people's decisions to subscribe or resubscribe.  This will entail the necessity of accurate information shared in a timely manner about upcoming game changes or any discontinuation of service.  Many of the carte blanche statements in EULAs that challenge other legal principles are likely to be rendered unlawful.  Some EULAs have already failed court challenges, resulting in fines to the service providers and orders to amend the unlawful EULAs.  The wheels of justice turn slowly because of the size of the bureaucracy, but they do turn.

If, or more likely when, these changes occur, I think people will be able to buy into the MMO genre with far less risk of abuse and exploitation at the hands of unethical business men and women.  For now, I think it's important to check a company's track record before investing any time, energy or money.

P.S.  For those that try to protest regulation by claiming it will be some kind of tax grab: If you paid your sales tax, you've already paid for this kind of service.  Furthermore, fines for offenders can be put towards this regulatory service.  There will be very little difference between this and the regulation of cable or satelite televsion services.

I wouldn't be suprised to see added "fees" or a new tax levy for online gaming in the future.

Originally posted by Valeran

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Wow Beatnik's post is indeed a 5 star read.  It takes the buyer beware message to a new level of clarity. 

It also echoes my thoughts on how this industry needs to continue to mature, and some service providers have further to go than others.

I also think it's very likely that regulation of the industry is going to become a reality in the near future.   I expect regulation will be designed to insure that customers get what was advertised, and that they get it in a functional state.  I also expect that it will govern information shared that effects people's decisions to subscribe or resubscribe.  This will entail the necessity of accurate information shared in a timely manner about upcoming game changes or any discontinuation of service.  Many of the carte blanche statements in EULAs that challenge other legal principles are likely to be rendered unlawful.  Some EULAs have already failed court challenges, resulting in fines to the service providers and orders to amend the unlawful EULAs.  The wheels of justice turn slowly because of the size of the bureaucracy, but they do turn.

If, or more likely when, these changes occur, I think people will be able to buy into the MMO genre with far less risk of abuse and exploitation at the hands of unethical business men and women.  For now, I think it's important to check a company's track record before investing any time, energy or money.

P.S.  For those that try to protest regulation by claiming it will be some kind of tax grab: If you paid your sales tax, you've already paid for this kind of service.  Furthermore, fines for offenders can be put towards this regulatory service.  There will be very little difference between this and the regulation of cable or satelite televsion services.

 

I wouldn't be suprised to see added "fees" or a new tax levy for online gaming in the future.

Same.

And the legal system is slowly "catching up".  On Martindale, the largest "opinions" surround the "net".  The rule of thunb, at the moment, seems to be "what's good for other industries is good for internet business".

States are slowly passing law in regards to "net" law, also.  California has included all of the provisions in CA Code (civ 1697-1701) to include internet based companies via case law.  This is also called some of the "most stringent consumer protection law" on the books.

Originally posted by Esquire1980

Originally posted by Valeran

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Wow Beatnik's post is indeed a 5 star read.  It takes the buyer beware message to a new level of clarity. 

It also echoes my thoughts on how this industry needs to continue to mature, and some service providers have further to go than others.

I also think it's very likely that regulation of the industry is going to become a reality in the near future.   I expect regulation will be designed to insure that customers get what was advertised, and that they get it in a functional state.  I also expect that it will govern information shared that effects people's decisions to subscribe or resubscribe.  This will entail the necessity of accurate information shared in a timely manner about upcoming game changes or any discontinuation of service.  Many of the carte blanche statements in EULAs that challenge other legal principles are likely to be rendered unlawful.  Some EULAs have already failed court challenges, resulting in fines to the service providers and orders to amend the unlawful EULAs.  The wheels of justice turn slowly because of the size of the bureaucracy, but they do turn.

If, or more likely when, these changes occur, I think people will be able to buy into the MMO genre with far less risk of abuse and exploitation at the hands of unethical business men and women.  For now, I think it's important to check a company's track record before investing any time, energy or money.

P.S.  For those that try to protest regulation by claiming it will be some kind of tax grab: If you paid your sales tax, you've already paid for this kind of service.  Furthermore, fines for offenders can be put towards this regulatory service.  There will be very little difference between this and the regulation of cable or satelite televsion services.

 

I wouldn't be suprised to see added "fees" or a new tax levy for online gaming in the future.

 

Same.

And the legal system is slowly "catching up".  On Martindale, the largest "opinions" surround the "net".  The rule of thunb, at the moment, seems to be "what's good for other industries is good for internet business".

States are slowly passing law in regards to "net" law, also.  California has included all of the provisions in CA Code (civ 1697-1701) to include internet based companies via case law.  This is also called some of the "most stringent consumer protection law" on the books.

Good news indeed, and in just the right jurisdiction. 
 

Also, regarding taxation, my current jurisdiction has been having regular government surpluses to the extent that the national goods and services tax has been lowered.  As far as covering the cost of regulating internet service, including MMO's, I think we're covered.  I can really only speak to the financial realities of my corner of the world in an informed way.  Some jurisdictions may require an additional budget for expanded regulatory services.  Hopefully, however, this would end up saving consumers money via preventing exploitation and abuse.  Of course I'd prefer it if service providers would police themselves.  Many have, others have not.  It's these others that make regulation inevitable in my view.  If I have anything to say about policy development on this issue, I would recommend that offenders get hit hard financially to cover any additional cost of regulation.  They make the monitoring necessary, and they should have to pay for it.

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Originally posted by Beatnik59

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Originally posted by Moaky07

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Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Heya Moaky.  As for saying I got over "it," I really wouldn't lie to you about that, and I don't think I'm lying to myself either.  As I think about it, I'm quite sure I don't want the pre-cu game back or classic servers etc.  I don't long for the good old days, and don't plan on trying any emulators of any game.  So, yes I can say that I'm over SWG.  That's what I am over.
Now, here's what I'm not over.  The tendancy of some MMO companies to engage in "creative marketting" that misrepresents the service people pay for.  I'm also not over the tendancy of some companies to release broken products that are missing features that were advertised.
This is an interest in seeing a relatively new entertainment service improve its quality, especially when offered by certain gaming companies.  I saw the damage that unethical behaviour can do to people, and I'd like to promote a better way of doing business.  I expect at some point, as industry standards improve across the board (companies that don't shape up won't be able to compete), I won't have much of a role to play at some point.  That'll be cool.
Also, I find Jestor's productions quite entertaining, and no I'm not laughing at him at all.  I admire his creativity. 

---

 
I am sure some of the "vets" around here do indeed support him, and enjoy his broadcasts.
Folks not stomping their feet over the "precious" have a tendacy to look at him as a "restraining order waiting to happen".
You can use any justification you wish...the bottom line is a game was modified just under 3 years ago, and some folks are still congregating around here over it.
I dont care what ya say, Dr Phil would have a field day with some of the "vets" around here...once he stopped laughing at the scenario, and realized folks still havent let go.
I tell ya what...go to any counseling for a few sessions. Be honest about your activities, and those you associate with. The RLMMO site, wildcats direct threat to open a webpage if you guys didnt get the precious back, and any of the other numerous things that have transpired the past 3 yrs.
I say several of the folks around here would end up commited for a duration of treatment...if not outright put into a straight-jacket/padded-room combo...waiting for the next electro-shock therapy clinic to have an opening.

---

 
Yes, I admit I was insane.
SWG was the first online game that I purchased and subscribed to on my own.  I played a bit of Ultima Online (not on my account or computer).  The reason I never bought and subscribed to Ultima Online was that I just didn't trust what the MMO publishers wanted me to buy into.
To me, MMOs were just not a good value.  In fact, I thought that it was a pretty shaky proposition.  I mean, they expected me to buy software at $50, subscribe for $15 a month, and in the best case scenario, I'd enjoy an expensive game...compared to all of the other, non-subscription based games I could buy.
But I always thought in the back of my mind, "what if they couldn't keep the service open, and had to close down?"  Then all of that money would be wasted and all I'd have is software that doesn't work.  To tell you the truth, I thought anyone who bought into these subscription-based games was insane, because it never seemed to dawn upon them that their enjoyment of these things was contingent on a ton of factors outside of their control.  Seeing how Earth and Beyond folded didn't help matters.  To me, these games seemed wasteful, impractical, and silly.  To tell you the truth, I thought that these games would all go bust.
My friends from grad school got into SWG.  They begged me to come on with them, so I was at the CompUSA in Chicago near Water Tower with the SWG box in my hand.  I thought about it for a good five minutes, until I said to myself I should give it a shot.  It seemed all good, since I had about four or five friends who did it too.  I figured it would be a nice diversion, if nothing else.
Now I look at my shelf and on my hard drive of my old PC.  I see the software, but at this point, all I see is how much money I wasted on something that I don't even know how to enjoy anymore:
Star Wars Galaxies: An Empire Divided $50x2= $100
Jump to Lightspeed $30x2= $60
Rage of the Wookiees $30x2= $60
Subs account 1: 27mox$15= $405
Subs account 2: 24mox$15= $360
________________________________
Total: $885
Compare that with Sim City IV, which I purchased a few months earlier:
Sim City IV: $50
Rush Hour: $30
__________________
Total: $80
Guess which one I still play and enjoy today?  To put it another way, which one would the sane person choose?
So yes, I was insane.  I was insane for not listening to my better sense before jumping into this sort of thing.  Then again, I saw how Ultima didn't fold, and games like Everquest were still going strong.  It seemed to me at the time that this industry came of age, and offered stability that was on par with their non-online counterparts.  For awhile, things seemed good.  I felt as if this genre was worth it, since the games got better as time went on.
Then my rulebook started to become slowly obsolete.  All throughout 2005, the game chganged slowly into something I didn't purchase, and didn't want.  All of the sudden I logged on to a game in late November that I literally didn't know how to play.  Not only that, but the animations, colors, and engine seemed broken.
I don't want to hear how SOE wasn't fufilling their expectations with SWG.  The fact that a publisher's interest impacts my continued enjoyment of the software I buy is one of the reasons this genre isn't for sane people.  I don't want to hear how SOE puts up the directions on how to play on their website.  I had a perfectly good rulebook before, and for the price I pay, I shouldn't have to relearn how to use the software I already learned.  I don't really care to know that people enjoy the NGE.  What makes these people better for SOE than I was with my $885?  The fact that there wasn't enough people like me?  The fact that the continued enjoyment of the things I purchase is contingent on factors that are beyond my control is another reason why only an insane person would buy into these games.
Now some may argue that bringing up SWG and SOE at this late stage is insane.  But when I consider that I spent far more time talking about how to make SWG better on the SWG boards--time and threads that, in retrospect, were ignored--I think I was far more insane talking about SWG when I was subscribed, than I am now.  Some may say that looking at Jesor's reports is insane.  But Jestor's reports are free, and I spend far less time watching Jestor than I did looking through patch notes, threads, and dev chats back when I was playing.  Looking back, I was far more insane to get hooked and conned by this industry, than I am now.
Complaining about SWG after three years is insane?  All the other software I purchased in 2005 I can still enjoy just as I did in 2005.  SWG is the exception though, so I see it as very sane to complain.  After all, it's free, unlike paying $885 for something that isn't and can never be yours.

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This is why I read here, this is why I post here -- because once in awhile, I get to see things like this. Thanks again, man.