Profile: gestalt11
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• • Not the deth of a genre, Death of a generation

  • I have been playing online games since before there were MMOs.  And in my opinion the problem has always been that a lot of people from MUDs and first-gen MMOs are simply close minded. 

     

    MUD players were not so bad as the MMO players.  But the ones that mostly stuck to one MUD were basically just as bad as many EQ players.  The ones that floated around across many MUDs tended to be a lot different even if they settled into one for years.  Much less constrained by the way things are "supposed to be".

     

    I guess that is pretty blunt but that has been something that seemed pretty consistent from 15 years of playing these sorts of games.

  • Posted: 12/02/08 2:45 PM
    General Discussion
• • What would sell better? A pure PVE mmo or pure PvP?

  • Originally posted by Giddian
    

    Originally posted by Sabiancym
    

    Originally posted by Novaseeker
    

    Originally posted by chokepoint
    

    Originally posted by pencilrick
    

    PVE, because in most cases a PVP'er can handle a PVE game (with some amount of grumbling), but a PVE'er has a much tougher time accepting the ganking in a PVP world.

     

    I will never understand the level of cowardice and fear of PVP you see from PVEers, especially when these people spend up to 4 hours a night repeatedly being rolled by AI-controlled scripted bosses for tiny incremental improvements in gear, yet they scream and whine when killed a couple of times by an actual player that doesn't have super boss powers.

     

    doesn't make any sense to me.

     

    I think that the reason is fairly obvious:  in PvE everyone wins (eventually), while PvP has winners and losers.  People don't like to lose.  The number of PvEers who do the challenging endgame raids is small for the same reason: people don't like to die.   This is why PvE is more popular than PvP, and why games will continue to have dumbed down PvE outside of endgame raids -- because the vast majority of people do not like to raid or do PvP, but want PvE content that they can "casually" play through and not die.

    
     

    I will never understand why people pay $15 a month to casually solo play an MMO. 

    
     

    You don't understand because your statment is TOTALY wrong. PvE People CAN solo, but 99% DON'T. They enjoy Compleating quests, advancing the Story lines, and going through Dungeons with thier Friends and Guilds. I have nothing against PvP, I just don't care for it. As For witch would sell more, a PvP or PvE MMO? Well thats a no brainer. What do 99% of the MMO's gear to now? PvE {With a Little PvP to make others Happy}

    Agree or disagree, Thats what sells, so thats what they make. Nothing wrong with PvP, It has a Following, but from what I see, Most PvP players think they are the majority. They are not, and the games that are made prove it.

     

    Not true.  The second best selling game is Guild Wars.  WoW may be the best selling by large amount.  But GW , as far as box sales, blows the PvE based games out of the water and then some.

     

    The problem is most of the PvP in most MMORPGs and the underlying RPG systems just plain suck at PvP.

     

    Guild Wars created a game with decent balance, very good interface and an equal footing.  And it destroyed most PvE games.

     

    Say whatever you want about GW not having world PvP or whatever.  Its not germaine.  Both PvE and PvP sell and both sell well.  That has been proven.

     

    The problem is most games not made by ArenaNet or Blizzard are seriously lacking in certain factors that make a game have the serious sales those two do.

     

    Has nothing to do with PvE or PvP per se.   Has more to do with quality.  To be sure if you want to make PvP a important focus then what qualifies as quality will be changed to some degree.

     

    But fact remains that the major difference are certain hard to define things those companies do that others do not.

  • Posted: 12/02/08 2:38 PM
    General Discussion
• • What would sell better? A pure PVE mmo or pure PvP?

  • The only real reason to play a pure PvP MMO is if there is some sort of potential for very large battles and some kind of startegy over multiple battlefields.

     

    Something like instanced AoC style keeps would get old real fast and other games do that better for free.  Something like what WAR currently has is the same thing but because its campaign has no real strategy to it and you might as well do other games for free that do it better.

     

    Something like Planetside has potential.  WAR is almost like Planetside but they messed up the details.

     

    If we add in the RPG part it actually gets even worse.  There is a small set of people who constantly advocate for huge differences based on RPG stats so that they can create a pyramid affect and then sit at the top of the pyramid and kick everyone off of it.  While that is realistic, in that it is a sort of rich get richer/poor stay poor effect, it is not fun for the majority of the game.

     

    The biggest problem with the RPG aspect of MMORPGs that want to be mostly PvP and still have progression is this pyramid scheme like effect.  That probably why WAR created its "tiers".  Of course the tiers in WAR are misguided in other ways so I can't say they are a good idea.

  • Posted: 12/02/08 2:32 PM
    General Discussion
• • MMOs and trash mobs

  • So I have been playing Mines of Moria for LOTRO and  Irealized something that had sort of been in the back of my mind for a while regarding questing based advancement.  Mainly because they released both new classes and new content for 50-60.  Which I am playing at the same time.  And therefore I basically compare the the old content and playstyle with the new.

     

    The main difference in this case is the Legendary Item (LI) system.  Which gives xp for items (up to 6 special items with a special interface).  In addition LI drop quite a lot of from mobs, they may or may not be for your class but you can always break them down for parts.  Even if they are for your class they may or may not have what you like and there is enough variety that almost each one is unique.

     

    So I am running around on my Warden, one of the new classes, and I run into a warg.  Waht is my response?  Its you are not a spider get hell out of my way speed bump I need 20 spiders for this quest.

     

    So I run into a goblin in Moria what is my response?  It is:  Hmmm I don't really need this guy but maybe he will drop something good or interesting and hey its item xp anyway.  I wind up klilling everything in my path and feeling pretty decent about doing it.

     

    Yet in the old content it is all just trash that is my way and annoying.  Even though I like the north downs I constantly get this feeling of being slightly annoyed.

     

    Its kind of funny really.  The content is not any different really as far as runnig nthrough normal places.  But one has trash and one has opportunity around every corner.

     

    This is not new, I believe Asheron's Call had a similar siystem with salvage and what not.  But it is rather interesting to spend 30 minutes on a level 54 character then spend 30 minutes questing on a level 24.  

     

    I think for those peole who dislike quest advancement this is sort of one of the major factors.  In a sense everything else other than what you are on is trash.  Even if it becomes non-trash once you get a quest at some point it is trash.  Either you need wargs or you don't and the minute you don't they are just obstacles for you.

     

    Not that Moria doesn't have quest based advancement it does and tons of it, but it merely balances things out more.

     

    I think in some way in attempt to make things smoother some games have taken out that sense of opportunity aroudn each corner.  I think Turbine may have in-advertently put that back in to some degree without fully realizing what they are doing.  To be sure they think the LI system is great and stuff.  But most likely more from a grindy perspective.  The subtle part is what is does to day to day activities.

     

    It is really the same reason people still play Diablo 2, although doing that  in that game was too grindy for me.  That fact remained that every time you went out was an opportunity for some unknown coolness.

     

    The games that copy WoW like questing.  Everything is enumerated.  Quests give X amount of xp.  They give standard stuff.  And that is fine.  But when that is all there is  Ithink for some set of people it becomes rahter stale.  I do not have that problem to a large extent but I think many people do.

     

    For me it is only particularly obvious playing the same game where the feature is gone.  I can feel the absense and notice how I naturally follow the path of least resistance.   And thus I am led to an annoyance for all the speed bumps in my way.  Rather than being happy to see something that might give me something good.

  • Posted: 12/02/08 2:01 PM
    General Discussion
• • WotLK; the new MMORPG techniques being used. Blizzard did it again.

  • Sigh. CoX had a complete 3D world as far as movement is concerned years before WoW.  And this "phasing" is nothing new and exists in other MMOs.  LOTRO has been doing similar and I would say more developed things like this since its release.

     

    I can't believe people fall for this Blizzard is innovative crap.   Especailly in regards to flying mounts.  Give me a break.  You can actually fight and fly in CoX.  Complete my foot.

  • Posted: 12/01/08 1:19 PM
    World of Warcraft